Comments on: Two Minutes of Ruby http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/ Tue, 22 May 2012 10:36:59 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Ben Griswold http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221388 Ben Griswold Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:07:12 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221388 @Jeremy, You're right, Twitter is still Rails on the front-end with Scala working behind the scenes. Here's a <a href="http://www.artima.com/scalazine/articles/twitter_on_scala.html" rel="nofollow">pretty good write up</a> for those interested. @All Kind of to everyone's point, Ruby (not to be confused with Ruby on Rails) was causing problems for Twitter. As Robey Pointer from Twitter explains in the prior reference: <blockquote cite=""> We had a Ruby-based queueing system that we used for communicating between the Rails front ends and the daemons, and we ended up replacing that with one written in Scala. The Ruby one actually worked pretty decently in a normal steady state, but the startup time and the crash behavior were undesirable. It was a little too slow and memory intensive. Sometimes our peak loads would knock it out. And when it got knocked out, it was very slow to recover, which is not what we wanted. We wanted something that could handle the edge cases and the high load, maybe not as easily as a regular load, but with relative ease.</blockquote> I could be wrong but I think you're all right! Ruby is slow for some things and just fine for others. It all depends on the problem domain, making right choices and accepting trade-offs when they unfortunately come up. I guess... @Jeremy, You’re right, Twitter is still Rails on the front-end with Scala working behind the scenes. Here’s a pretty good write up for those interested.

@All Kind of to everyone’s point, Ruby (not to be confused with Ruby on Rails) was causing problems for Twitter. As Robey Pointer from Twitter explains in the prior reference:

We had a Ruby-based queueing system that we used for communicating between the Rails front ends and the daemons, and we ended up replacing that with one written in Scala. The Ruby one actually worked pretty decently in a normal steady state, but the startup time and the crash behavior were undesirable. It was a little too slow and memory intensive. Sometimes our peak loads would knock it out. And when it got knocked out, it was very slow to recover, which is not what we wanted. We wanted something that could handle the edge cases and the high load, maybe not as easily as a regular load, but with relative ease.

I could be wrong but I think you’re all right! Ruby is slow for some things and just fine for others. It all depends on the problem domain, making right choices and accepting trade-offs when they unfortunately come up.

I guess…

]]> By: Jeremy Anderson http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221387 Jeremy Anderson Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:06:58 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221387 @John Bristow: Doesn't Twitter still use Rails for the front-end and use Scala for their queuing? and @ Zach Curtis, I think that invalidates your argument about Ruby being slow compared to other languages. Scala can't handle the massive queue that twitter deals with. Has anyone here actually been responsible for scaling an application that handles as much real-time data as twitter? Be honest with yourself about the answer, they have a monumental task. @John Bristow: Doesn’t Twitter still use Rails for the front-end and use Scala for their queuing? and @ Zach Curtis, I think that invalidates your argument about Ruby being slow compared to other languages. Scala can’t handle the massive queue that twitter deals with. Has anyone here actually been responsible for scaling an application that handles as much real-time data as twitter? Be honest with yourself about the answer, they have a monumental task.

]]> By: Ben Griswold http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221288 Ben Griswold Mon, 19 Jul 2010 14:12:53 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221288 @Kalpesh, I read <a href="http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/" rel="nofollow">Why’s (Poignant) Guide to Ruby</a> a few months back and now I'm reading through a number of online tutorials (here's <a href="http://rubylearning.com/satishtalim/tutorial.html" rel="nofollow">a pretty good one of many</a>) and I'm counting on Google to help me discover the syntax I need to solve the Euler problems. There's so much information online, I haven't purchased any books yet. Thanks for the question. I think I might publish a list of resources in an up coming post. @Kalpesh, I read Why’s (Poignant) Guide to Ruby a few months back and now I’m reading through a number of online tutorials (here’s a pretty good one of many) and I’m counting on Google to help me discover the syntax I need to solve the Euler problems. There’s so much information online, I haven’t purchased any books yet. Thanks for the question. I think I might publish a list of resources in an up coming post.

]]> By: Kalpesh http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221282 Kalpesh Mon, 19 Jul 2010 06:06:47 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221282 How are you learning Ruby? Can you recommend any book/tutorial that you are using? How are you learning Ruby?
Can you recommend any book/tutorial that you are using?

]]> By: Ben Griswold http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221247 Ben Griswold Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:52:52 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221247 Good comments, @Synapse. I have found that ReSharper actually helps me keep everything in order thanks to namespacing hints, the ability to refactor classes into their own files, etc. I'm pretty good at organizing my code anyway though so ReSharper is more of an aid than a crutch for me in this regard. I get your point though. Thanks again. Good comments, @Synapse. I have found that ReSharper actually helps me keep everything in order thanks to namespacing hints, the ability to refactor classes into their own files, etc. I’m pretty good at organizing my code anyway though so ReSharper is more of an aid than a crutch for me in this regard. I get your point though. Thanks again.

]]> By: synapse http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221224 synapse Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:35:32 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221224 @Zach Speed of front-end is just a none-issue, cause you hit the DB first and cause you can always scale horizontally, get more boxes and you'll be ok. Facebook uses all kinds of technologies in the back-end like Erlang, C, whaterever, but they've used PHP for front-end until recently. Intellisense is really evil, cause it promotes creation of functions with tons of arguments and doesn't let you code top-to-bottom aka "test first". Always gets in the way with its stupid suggestions for the methods I haven't implemented yet. @Ben Resharper is kinda evil cause with its excellent navigation no one cares to keep their assemblies/namespaces in order. Though it let's you clean the mess in no time. @Zach
Speed of front-end is just a none-issue, cause you hit the DB first and cause you can always scale horizontally, get more boxes and you’ll be ok. Facebook uses all kinds of technologies in the back-end like Erlang, C, whaterever, but they’ve used PHP for front-end until recently.

Intellisense is really evil, cause it promotes creation of functions with tons of arguments and doesn’t let you code top-to-bottom aka “test first”. Always gets in the way with its stupid suggestions for the methods I haven’t implemented yet.

@Ben
Resharper is kinda evil cause with its excellent navigation no one cares to keep their assemblies/namespaces in order. Though it let’s you clean the mess in no time.

]]> By: Jon Bristow http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221205 Jon Bristow Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:05:39 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221205 @Zach: Twitter runs on scala now. Since early 2009. As I've been discussing with Ben, I think that getting an idea to market is your number 1 priority when creating an original web application idea. If you can't get it out the door quickly, you're likely to lose interest and momentum before you even see if the idea you had was a good one. Ruby lets you focus on your idea. After you are successful, you can worry about optimization/scalability/etc. "We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil" @Zach: Twitter runs on scala now. Since early 2009.

As I’ve been discussing with Ben, I think that getting an idea to market is your number 1 priority when creating an original web application idea. If you can’t get it out the door quickly, you’re likely to lose interest and momentum before you even see if the idea you had was a good one. Ruby lets you focus on your idea. After you are successful, you can worry about optimization/scalability/etc.

“We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil”

]]> By: Ben Griswold http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221182 Ben Griswold Thu, 15 Jul 2010 20:18:36 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221182 @Zach - Thanks for the comments. Intellisense and even the compiler, for that matter, should be appreciated and used. Heck, I publicly shared that I learned much of the core Linq syntax by playing with the various ReSharper refactorings. All are valuable learning tools and code validators, for lack of a better term. That said, the Ruby community has embraced TDD, BDD, etc in order to reduce most of those risks. TDD/BDD come with some upfront cost but there is continuous return on that investment. The compiler and intellisense offers none. Well, there's still the learning aspect which intellisense provides but if a language is truly grokkable, maybe the learning aid is not really needed after all. And who knows? Maybe intellisense and ReSharper aren't really teaching us anything. Maybe they are just helping us fill in the blanks until we turn to them for that same task again and again? Don't get me wrong: I am forever thankful for VS and the tools which compliment static languages like C#, but maybe that's because it's all I really know? I'm kind of thinking on paper here. You know. Hands frantically waving... Fists slamming... @Zach – Thanks for the comments. Intellisense and even the compiler, for that matter, should be appreciated and used. Heck, I publicly shared that I learned much of the core Linq syntax by playing with the various ReSharper refactorings. All are valuable learning tools and code validators, for lack of a better term. That said, the Ruby community has embraced TDD, BDD, etc in order to reduce most of those risks. TDD/BDD come with some upfront cost but there is continuous return on that investment. The compiler and intellisense offers none. Well, there’s still the learning aspect which intellisense provides but if a language is truly grokkable, maybe the learning aid is not really needed after all. And who knows? Maybe intellisense and ReSharper aren’t really teaching us anything. Maybe they are just helping us fill in the blanks until we turn to them for that same task again and again? Don’t get me wrong: I am forever thankful for VS and the tools which compliment static languages like C#, but maybe that’s because it’s all I really know? I’m kind of thinking on paper here. You know. Hands frantically waving… Fists slamming…

]]> By: Zach Curtis http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221181 Zach Curtis Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:58:07 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221181 Let me qualify the "super slow" comment with "super slow compared to other languages (C#, Java, Etc). Just saying super slow is a relative and ignorant comment. Lol. Let me qualify the “super slow” comment with “super slow compared to other languages (C#, Java, Etc). Just saying super slow is a relative and ignorant comment. Lol.

]]> By: Zach Curtis http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221180 Zach Curtis Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:54:48 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221180 I have played with Ruby a touch and am becoming increasingly interested in it. Coming from php, I had a hard time adjusting to ASP.Net and all the costs associated. It pays the bills as you said. My only grumble with Ruby is the speed. I know it is getting better but speed tests show time and time again how Ruby is super slow. Look at Twitter! It is one of the slowest and highest failure rate services I have ever seen. I also disagree with the "Intellisense is for chumps" comment. Intellisense can help a person understand all the options available at a given point in code and therefore can help us understand what it does, even the obscure pieces. It can be a crutch, but my favorite thing is that when I select something, I KNOW it is typed correctly and it is what I intended. Being a JS lover I do not have the solid and extensive intellisense and that is fine, but I find mis-spellings and wrong casing all the time. This requires at least as many refreshes as otherwise. Great post though. I appreciate the opinion and look forward to working with Ruby more. I have played with Ruby a touch and am becoming increasingly interested in it. Coming from php, I had a hard time adjusting to ASP.Net and all the costs associated. It pays the bills as you said. My only grumble with Ruby is the speed. I know it is getting better but speed tests show time and time again how Ruby is super slow. Look at Twitter! It is one of the slowest and highest failure rate services I have ever seen.
I also disagree with the “Intellisense is for chumps” comment. Intellisense can help a person understand all the options available at a given point in code and therefore can help us understand what it does, even the obscure pieces. It can be a crutch, but my favorite thing is that when I select something, I KNOW it is typed correctly and it is what I intended. Being a JS lover I do not have the solid and extensive intellisense and that is fine, but I find mis-spellings and wrong casing all the time. This requires at least as many refreshes as otherwise.
Great post though. I appreciate the opinion and look forward to working with Ruby more.

]]> By: Ben Griswold http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221177 Ben Griswold Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:05:00 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221177 @Dustin - I don't think I have the experienced to answer your question either. Maybe (hopefully) someone else will chime in. That said, I don't think I'd be going too far out on a limb if I said that most Ruby hype is centered around Rails. And though you are learning Ruby as a means to learn Rails, I wouldn't be surprised if you start digging the language enough that you turn to it for web development, random scripts over possibly other applications development in the future. I have the sense that Ruby is a tool best suited for Rails and scripting, but I'm sure it could lend itself elsewhere. For example, I've heard about writing MVC views in dynamic languages like Ruby and I've also read the benefits of using Ruby/Python for unit testing. Long answer to say, "I'm not sure. Sorry." @Dustin – I don’t think I have the experienced to answer your question either. Maybe (hopefully) someone else will chime in. That said, I don’t think I’d be going too far out on a limb if I said that most Ruby hype is centered around Rails. And though you are learning Ruby as a means to learn Rails, I wouldn’t be surprised if you start digging the language enough that you turn to it for web development, random scripts over possibly other applications development in the future. I have the sense that Ruby is a tool best suited for Rails and scripting, but I’m sure it could lend itself elsewhere. For example, I’ve heard about writing MVC views in dynamic languages like Ruby and I’ve also read the benefits of using Ruby/Python for unit testing. Long answer to say, “I’m not sure. Sorry.”

]]> By: Ben Griswold http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221176 Ben Griswold Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:47:56 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221176 Note: I added some additional commentary on extending classes per Skyped comments Jon made about our lunch conversation. Note: I added some additional commentary on extending classes per Skyped comments Jon made about our lunch conversation.

]]> By: Dustin http://johnnycoder.com/blog/2010/07/15/two-minutes-of-ruby/comment-page-1/#comment-221175 Dustin Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:46:07 +0000 http://johnnycoder.com/blog/?p=1362#comment-221175 I just started learning Ruby so that I can learn Rails. I found that it is an interesting language but (and this is probably due to my lack of exp with Ruby) I can't see how you could make useful "applications" and not just scripts. Yes, you can do websites but so can PHP. Can you build enterprise apps? That isn't a knock on Ruby, i'm just asking a question. I just started learning Ruby so that I can learn Rails. I found that it is an interesting language but (and this is probably due to my lack of exp with Ruby) I can’t see how you could make useful “applications” and not just scripts. Yes, you can do websites but so can PHP. Can you build enterprise apps?

That isn’t a knock on Ruby, i’m just asking a question.

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